Right, but if you take too much pain up front. Do you remember at what point this revised estimate comes in? It may have struck people on the outside as unusual, but not if youd been around. That was a wonderful comment. and he said, No. Against that test, a noncrisis Presidency, what can they achieve, under the extremely adverse politics of this time, thats been building up. So the dynamic between the two was quite an interesting dynamic and quite quicklyto come to your pointafter the stimulus plan went down, Clinton began deferring to Bentsen on everything. This had been the thrust of the campaign, so expectations were very high that Clinton would come forward with a real economic program, a comprehensive program, and from the moment that all these folks were chosen the question was, what is that program going to be? I was the senior Treasury person day-in, day-out on the major healthcare task force that Mrs. Clinton herself chaired. Well, how do you know? When you say the coordinator, you mean of the Presidents message? The media to some degree has shifted for, in my view, simple generational reasons, to the right, and the right-of-center media is much more monolithic than the rest of the media, and so its ability to concentrate its opposition and its influence emerged as much greater during the Clinton years. Howard Paster at the White House, Mike Levy at the Treasury. I believe Perots presence helped Clinton because Perot kept saying how messed up the country was, so that actually helped the challenger rather than the incumbent. Were now in the pre-election period. The reason it didnt succeed a lot more than that is because its really macro factors that drive this. It was not as big a change as it was advertised to be, or has been seen historically. So yes, the themes were in the State of the Union. Concessions involving individual members of Congress could often be done at a lower level, depending on the magnitude of the concession. I dont really think Bentsen knew me at all. Well, after the Presidents unveiling and before the war room, this pre-war room effort at selling, how was that coordinated? The hearings process really kind of kicks it off. How did the decision-making go about to decide on these different components of the package? No, what Im trying to say is that there were several points of view advanced by some of the people there, who had, in one form or another, policy experience. This is a bit of an anecdote, but of course Joel Klein served in the Clinton administration. Stay as long as you can figure out how to cling to it. Like everybody else, I thought he was finished when the Gennifer Flowers event emerged. The number of possible votes at that stage had dwindled down to a tiny number, votes that were undecided. There was also a very memorable event that was held in the East Room of the White House, and recall that within a week or two of this event, Clintons own position on NAFTA was still up in the air. So it was job one, so to speak. I think that there wasagain, I dont follow this that closelybut there was a fast reaction in short-term rates when the Federal Reserve Board loosened, early on, in what appeared to be quid pro quoGreenspan offered some assurance to Congress that the Fed would be cognizant of the Federal. The ultimate plan was way too complicated for the Congress and the country to grasp and understand and soberly assess. So I knew nothing about the substance of the Clinton case. Alan Greenspan was on it; Simon was chair of it. Not too much, though. Yes, we could have had that. He must have wondered what he was doing. Youve had Chiefs of Staff, Don Regan comes to mind, who see themselves as all-powerful and go too far to one end of the spectrum, and youve had others like Mack, who are too deferential and too averse to confrontation and go too far in the other direction. Were you consulting with the President occasionally after you left Washington and came back to New York? Was there a group of people who were helping him on the policy side respective to economics? So he didnt have the luxury of saying, Lets do it a year from now, as you often do with other things. Thats why I wonder whether there was some kind of perception, outside. Rubin was well known as an economic conservative, and Bentsen, of course, had a very long legislative record, which was in the same direction. So Fiske came to the conclusion that nothing had happened, Starr came to the conclusion nothing had happened, and certainly, if he could have found anything, I think he would have been motivated to push it. Secretary Bentsen took a lot of heat not long after being sworn in saying hed like to see a stronger yen, and that touched off a lot of controversy. Ill give you an answer but Ill preface it by saying Im not sure my memory is quite right here. Because it promotes a lack of confidence in financial markets and, for that matter, a lack of confidence in the business community, a sense that that administration doesnt know what its doing. Primarily I had learned what doesnt work, and I had learned a couple of thingsyou can tell, I think, when youre exposed to a candidate enough times, whether hes going to work out there as a retail politician, as they say, an outdoor politician, and when he isnt. The Federal Government doesnt have much of a role in education. Did you keep up with him when your paths parted? Working on the Hill, traveling? They all came to the same conclusions. I dont know this, but I suspect that was decided largely between the President and Mrs. Clinton. She had a million task forces, but the senior one. Those would be the main points Id mention. I dont think this is what it really says, but I suppose in the distant lens of history, Ronald Reagan ended the Cold War. Is he going to become President? I was defeated in my effort to become student body president, as, interestingly, was Clinton. Not surprising, given his state of origin. To this day, I have a much closer relationship with her than I do with him. And Bentsen, who full knew this was going to be on the front page of the Wall Street Journal said, Im not in the Senate. I went also for the election. Obviously Sam Rayburn. It turned out to be the equivalent of walking the plank. I might have a point of view about what those ought to be based on certain inputs I was receiving directly from the Hill and we need to work more on this or that. I was often at the National Economic Council meetings that deliberated on those. David Gergen was brought, which I think was probably the fall of 93 and Panetta replaced Mackthat was an awfully big event, of course. That process had been going on. Were there any big-picture elements that you wanted to put into the puzzle right now or should we just go ahead and break and we can pick up with some of the specifics on these things? I think history will probably record that as the most important achievement of President Clintons overall Presidency, not the vote itself of course, but the ultimate effects of it. I can even imagine an independent counsel of some kind being unlikely, but not impossible, designated in the whole weapons of mass destruction issue. It wasnt funny in the conventional sense, but it was just funny. We talked for about 12 seconds about any role that I might play. It was a bit of a love fest. It was absolutely breathtaking, profoundly dramatic and unforgettable, absolutely unforgettable. You wouldnt choose to go before a grand jury instead of, say, going to Yankee Stadium to see the Yankees playAt that point I was already out of the administration and I had no real concerns. Bob Rubin talked with great credibility about the bond market responding, and James Carville was so amusing for so long afterwards saying he wanted to come back in his next life and be the bond market because everybody paid such fealty to it. I view that as a very unfortunate decision the Democrats made, but that was a new low, or a new high, however you look at it, in partisanship. I mean, after all, Whitewater ultimately amounted to nothing. As I recall the campaign of 1992, there were lots of policy debates amongst the Democrats. Remember, youre playing for four years, youre not playing for one year. No. Well, if you think about spending initiatives that you could take today that are politically imaginable, they amount to a hill of beans in a $10.7 trillion economy. I can tell you without any fear of contradiction that anyone who makes either of those mistakes, and I can think of others, will ultimately rue the day that he made them. It was quite an experience, in retrospect. Well, there was, like most administrations, kind of a running shakeup. Clinton moved quickly. Certainly, when he captained it, it was a different party than it had been for the previous 50 years. He was very impressive. Bob Rubin. Then, while the agreement called for there to be no further duties or tariffs or anything on everything, a whole variety of items were carved out in order to get certain votes. Clinton chose in Bentsen, with the possible exception of [Robert] Dole, who obviously wasnt a candidate for this, the most experienced person in the entire United States Congress. For the finance minister of an industrialized country to talk down his own currency always proves to be a mistake, always. Thats something we dont have a lot of information about. I know I didnt and I was very involved in trade policy as a whole because much of our trade policy involved Japan and I was very involved in that. How early were you beginning to get a sense that the Republicans were going to be an historically difficult problem for this President? Then we put on our battle armor and went back into battle. They just didnt believe it would work. So I wasnt sure what was going to happen, but there was no one in the field that was suddenly squashing everyone else including Clinton. In general, no. Did you know him, you said you hadnt known him before then? Today, we serve a prominent and diverse set of clients and investors, including leading multinational corporations, large institutional investors and financial sponsors, and high net worth individuals. I began to see on pickup trucks around Charlottesville, very soon after Clinton became President, Impeach Bill Clinton and I dont thinkI remember Impeach Earl Warren signs, Im that old. She wears her heart on her sleeve much more than he does. I think it was over two days. Its very puzzling to me how that could happen when the man had such an obvious gift for feeling peoples pain and a very strong public presence. I spoke to the Oklahoma state legislature. Is this time for patriotism? Ive been struck on several occasions in response to questions, youve referred to historical patterns and trends. Where the negotiations broke down, I dont know what caused it. But it was quite obvious that wed lost the battle. Its actually enjoyable, its fun. I dont. He knew what the House would do. And that kind of input isnt available during the campaign. How difficult was it to do what you were doing in an environment where Mario Cuomo was sort of floating around trying to figure out. That was before the convention. Roger Altman (left) launched Evercore in 1995 and shed the CEO title in May of last year when Ralph Schlosstein (right) took it and quintupled assets under management to $15 billion. So those ideas were developed during the campaign. Evercore uses cookies to give you the best experience on our website. We had a macro economic task force. I cant cite the examples that I can cite about the National Economic Council, because I studied that for Clinton, but I doubt it. I was given an office over in the Treasury. Georgetown was a semi-serious school. Bentsen could tell you, within 4 percent accuracy, what was going to happen to every one of these bills. Under the normal circumstances, like Clintons, they have considerable difficulties in an adverse political environment to get anything done, and that is the more normal historical situation. Yes, but typically you wouldnt resort to that with relative stability in the exchange markets, and we did have relative stability. The entire gamut. And it was just fuel on the already roaring fire of Whitewater. So hes the one who asked you to serve in that position, not Clinton. So I think Clintons own behavior did play a role in it and that in retrospect there would have been better ways for Clinton to have dealt with some of these things. Can you tell us about his decision-making process on this? It wasnt trade; trade was not a big issue in the campaign. Most of what people today look back on as the early economic policy of the Clinton administration, in my view, was formulated post-election. For example, during the Lewinsky matter, the airways were filled with former Clinton officials expounding their views of President Clintons foibles and why he might have done this and this and that. Did that debate begin as early as August? One, the recession of 91 and early or mid 92, the economy was performing poorly. It wasnt between the political people and the policy people, it was among the policy people and involving some of the political people. But I was to be sure, no matter what they asked me, guns? Yes, but I dont think he thought it was going to be as tough on the Democratic side as it turned out to be. As far as healthcare versus welfare reform? Bob Rubin was the ultimate financial market person, knew the role of the Federal Reserve so well. I mean, not to take any credit away from other players, you wouldnt want to do that Im sure, but there must have been some. For example, out of that Tokyo summit, bilateral summit, Clinton, [Kiichi] Miyazawa, or whoever the Prime Minister was at the moment, came a commitment from the Japanese to lower their current account deficit from what I think was 2.5 percent of GDP [Gross Domestic Product] to less than 2 percent. No, I had very little contact with Mr. Clinton for roughly 20 years after leaving. The first thing that we typically do is a quick voice identification so that the transcriptionist will know whos talking at any given time.Im Russell Riley, the project leader for the Clinton Presidential History Project. That raises the question then of the people he was meeting with here. There were a lot of people who did take that candidacy very seriously though, right? He should have taken it. If Im not mistaken, Paul Tsongas won New Hampshire? I think thats a very important point because it turned out to be an awfully successful piece of legislation and not a single Republican voted for it. Lets divide concessions into two: actual changes in the bill, and then offering a Congressman something in another area to help make it easier for him to vote for this. I stayed overnight, went back the next day. Well, Theodore Roosevelt is a fascinating President, mostly by dint of his gargantuan personality and the way that he bestrode the country like some titanic figure. Was that equally true of the colleagues that you were making sales to with Clinton? No, I dont remember that effort at all, so it must have been pretty quiet. By continuing to browse, you agree to the use of Evercore's cookies. But its interesting to put it into perspective. I went back to the airport in Austin, reported that to Warren Christopher, and I think we were all announced within a week. Actually it was mundane. I did. Before the grand jury before Starr, and how was that experience? Way back in season one of Shameless, Fiona got a housekeeping job at a hotel. Did Senator [Edward] Kennedy figure at all as a help or a hindrance or what in the budget battle, he wasnt really a key player? Clinton had one and in this instance, on the stimulus program, he should have listened to him. There were not pitched battles. I want to come back to something that we had touched upon earlier, and that was this question about the administrations prioritizations, because you had suggested that there were some internal discussions, even at the time that NAFTA was taken on, as to what to do next. So they came in and interviewed him. Chicago, of course, always has been, and they attracted very different students. No. There was concern that we had already spilled an enormous amount of blood on the economic plan. It wasnt going to be a war between the United States and the Soviet Union. So the traditional Democratic field has had in it a few candidates who represent that. Two questions, one of which was minor. Do you recall in your conversations with Senator Bentsen, were there missed opportunities for developing a more bipartisan atmosphere in Washington at this time, or was it pretty much just a foregone conclusion that because the Republicans were now completely in the minority that they were going to obstruct from the outset? I think Clinton was better served by virtue of Perots presence in the campaign than without it. She didnt cast it because of me, but it just became obvious to me in that conversation that she was very reluctant to cast that vote. Three-quarters of the people who go into the Cabinet never want to leave it, its great being a Cabinet officer. So monetary policy has gone from being considerably more powerful than fiscal policy in 93, to being the only policy in town in 2003. We were both quite active in student government. Im not sure anyone is ever going to pay a penalty in American society for that type of commentary. Roger Altman, Evercore senior chairman and founder, joins Squawk on the Street to share his thoughts on Bidens infrastructure plan and the corporate tax debate. So there wasnt all that much time, maybe ten days, twelve days, between opening the office, showing up down there and then having the Treasury Secretary and the rest of the members of the economic team chosen. I came to respect Dole a lot through Bentsen. I then had the brilliant ideaIm saying this, obviously sarcastically, that I should inform the White House what those procedural alternatives were. So Mack played relatively little role in this. So theres no reporting responsibility, its treated as one office, a little bit like a corporate office of the chairman which includes the chairman, and the CEO, and the President and chief operating officer, and maybe even one or two others. Some of them I think were insincere, but many of them were sincere. Remember, President Clintons first initiative, the stimulus plan, was defeated. If you look at the history of American reform, at that scale of change, usually you have a little bit more consensus than a 43 percent electoral. Ive read a lot of whats been written about the healthcare plan, its all there. I wasnt involved in any of the delegate-related strategies, no. Its mostly things I learned that dont work. The hearings ended around the fourth or fifth of August and it was now the seventeenth or something. There was a camp around that view. Once she was put in charge of it, it obviously had tremendous internal focus. So I ended up serving in this job for 12 or 13 months, and I had a very disciplined approach to it. The social aspect of it also involved here? No. We did have goals. You havent told us about your own appointment. I remember that very vividly, and I said, I want to do the honorable thing. Nothing, zero, never did, never would have. We just kept the pressure on the best we could. Thats just exactly what I said. But when youre in the administrationI mean, as you well know, there are many on the more liberal side of the Clinton alumni who think the administration basically adopted the Republican position on welfare reform and that was what enabled it to happen, and anybody could have done it and Clinton doesnt deserve a lot of credit for it. Its been a big help to us and again, we know how extremely busy you are. Then in the latter part of 93 I think, Whitewater began to surface, I think it was late 93. Are you including in this the difference of approach between the campaign-oriented, the political people, and the policy people, as well as the differences among. There were probably 25 major separate deals negotiated to win the passage. But anyway, he was quite a character. But my role was shaped largely by two things: one, Bentsen and what Bentsen wanted; and two, the fact that I had a reasonably close relationship with the White House. Will policy differences be the reason that candidate X or candidate Y emerges with the nomination? Of course that depends on the moment in question. My testimony was rather a highlight of that. Erskine Bowles had to testify and so forth. Clinton gave his State of the Union address, the 28th of January, eight days after being inaugurated. He served as assistant secretary of the U.S. Treasury from 1977 to 1981 before returning to Lehman, where he later became co-head of overall investment banking as well as a member of the management committee and board. You were in Tokyo when the President went over? Those characteristics I thought were rather evident upon meeting him just a few times. But it wasnt political on one hand, policy on the other, just different ideologies. There ensued a quite Byzantine process, as has been so widely written about with multiple task forces and enormous numbers of people involved.There were a lot of these Bill Clinton-style meetings, great big long meetings with far too many people in the room. Its a matter of record that I was not asked to resign, but Bentsen, a couple of weeks after the hearings were over, asked me, What do you really want to do? Unfortunately, during the Clinton era ultimately there were four, five, or six independent counsels chosen to look into Bruce Babbitt and Ron Brown and some of the other people. Ironically, Clintons style for those meetings and the style of the present President are not very different. I guess I figured, were I to be appointed something, it would likely be in the Treasury, and perhaps, by process of elimination, nothing else seemed logical to me. It should have, but it hasnt. During the preparation would you call that an organized group? I doubt it. You didnt have to spend a lot of time with Lloyd Bentsen to know that he wasnt going to be shunted aside. I raise the question because one of the outside perceptions that you get later on is when, in the early post-election period of the administration, theres some considerable debate within the administration about which of the priorities ought to come first, and among some of the people that you mentioned in Little Rock at the time. I think thats a wonderful tradition. We knew each other, but we turned out to be the first two to go down and I dont know why that was. Was it defined initially as a Democratic Party issue and Republicans were cut out, or how did that happen? I appreciate that and I think youve done us a big favor today by illuminating that. I was an Assistant Secretary, I had a few meetings with President Carter but not that many, so I wasnt familiar, But it was not the way you would organize, and one wonders, Mack McLarty was the Chief of Staff at the time and came out of a business. A little bit. More in terms of ostracism from your former colleagues. Its always a mistake to critique the Federal Reserve. As I recall, the distinctive thing about Clinton, if everyone had one courageous stand, his was on free trade. Can you tell us a little bit about the second role? Not necessarily. I was completelyclean bill of health from the independent counsel. Tickets to the Kennedy Center and things of that nature, or is this too big a matter. But the election result itself was anticlimactic. He helped me in my efforts and then a year later I helped him in his. It was quite a full-bore effort. And I dont accept entirely your formulation, even though I think theres a lot to it. 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